Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist

November 18, 2012

Jews against Zionism

Filed under: zionism — louisproyect @ 1:22 am

Jewish Anti-zionist demonstrators protest near to the Israeli embassy in central London on November 15, 2012 outside of the Israeli embassy in central London.

18 Comments »

  1. I don’t understand why this group gets ridiculed by anti-zionist jews. sure, they’re small in numbers and they’re orthodox (ultra) but, to the extent that they get any publicity at all, it must help eat away at Israel’s “legitimacy”. It must create a doubt in some of the public’s mind about the “jewish state”>

    Comment by uh...clem — November 18, 2012 @ 1:52 am

  2. yeah me neither #1.. i could rag on them from my atheist point of view: “HOLYLAND” ‘Jonah in the Whale’ tripe, no i don’t think sooooo ; but as ac tivists they take things back to where i feel FAIR is (Nov 1st 1918). No Religion should have its own country. What if Scientologists wanted their own country ??? i deeply appreciate them in public , they with their signs are a huge visual for the john doe pedestrian across the USA ~ cluster bomb capital of the world.

    Comment by Darwin26 — November 18, 2012 @ 2:44 am

  3. Selecting any port in the storm as an argument is weak politics. Except for this slender reed of agreement you would find little else positive from this off the wall Hasidic sect. I expect more from the blog. This is a cheap shot.

    Comment by Hugh B. — November 18, 2012 @ 3:31 am

  4. Actually, one can argue that these ass clowns are the real ultra-Zionist loons, as these Hasidic Cultists believe in an Israel, but only one offered directly to them by their god and not by the UN. IOW, same goal, different landlord.

    Comment by kjs — November 19, 2012 @ 7:58 pm

  5. @Darwin26 – the conflict in Palestine is ethnic, not only religious. Secular/Areligious Zionism does exist, you know. There are various Jewish ethnicities all over the world – from the Ashkenazi Jews to the Mizrahi Jews.

    Israel commits many crimes, but arguing against Zionism on the “no religion should have their own country” basis is misunderstanding your opponent’s positions. Zionism is primarily a form of nationalism, and can take both religious and non-religious forms.

    Comment by MT — November 19, 2012 @ 8:23 pm

  6. Hi MT, thank you for that insight ~ And yes i understand the issue is Racism not so much ‘religious’ per se in Palestine. Being an Atheist i don’t think any religion should have their own counttry So it is from that standpoint i come: as a Jewish State Israel has no right to exist. Clearly i / we must not conflate Jewish Religion for Israeli Zionist policy. It is most definately ugly Zionism/nationalist theocracy we are up against. This is why ‘they’ have been using the anti-Semitic meme to make it look like we don’t like them for their religion. which i’m sure everyone on this blog knows.
    It’s not likely my atheism will elimenate a religious theocratical govt nor will i get my wish for the borders to pre Nov 2nd 1918.

    Comment by Darwin26 — November 19, 2012 @ 10:17 pm

  7. You seem to be slightly confused about my argument. Zionism’s usual argument is that Israel is a state for Jewish ethnicity (well, various Jewish ethnicities around the world, really, since the Ashkenazi and the Ethiopian Jews don’t have much of a connection with each other). Israel is a racist state, but it’s not exactly a theocracy, despite some theocratic elements here and there.

    So, telling “I don’t think any religion should have their own country/ So it is from that standpoint i come: as a Jewish State Israel has no right to exist” doesn’t refute the Zionist arguments at all. They can counter that they mean “Jewish state” as a state for Israeli Jewish ethnicity (Machover’s Neo-Hebrews), not for the religion of Judaism. There are variants of Zionism that are very nationalistic, but not theocratic. There are some Atheist Jews who support Israel sorely for nationalistic reasons, being perfectly willing to excuse even the worst of its atrocities, but don’t care much about the religious aspect.

    Comment by MT — November 19, 2012 @ 10:32 pm

  8. Thank you very much MT for clarifying, There’s a lot to wrap ones head around, and you helped clear my head on this.~ ~~ There is minutia cluttering the issue, and issues cluttered with minutia; Russian Jews transplanted to Palestine, Vanunu, and a lot of blood in Jerusalem, many facets. The Zionists will muddy whatever to get their way. It makes my head hurt and my heart ache for those who are being ripped apart for Racist-Zionist. Our State dept knows all this.
    However i have to say that there’s no such thing as an Atheist Jew, kinda like Jews for Jesus maybe. i don’t think i can get my head around that.

    Comment by Darwin26 — November 20, 2012 @ 12:08 am

  9. There are Atheist Jews Anti-Zionists and Atheist Jewish Zionists. Think of it that way: If an Israeli believing Jew becomes an atheist, he’ll still regard Hebrew as his native language. He may oppose Israel’s policies, but he’ll still regard it as his birthplace (Motherland, so to speak).

    Also, in the former USSR for the majority of its history, the Jews who lived here had to write “Jew” as their ethnicity in their passports, no matter whether they believed in Judaism, or not. If both your parents were Jewish, you didn’t have the right to write anything else in the “ethnicity” blank. Quite a lot of prominent Soviet personalities were both Jewish and atheist (poet Boris Pasternak, for instance).

    Comment by MT — November 20, 2012 @ 10:00 am

  10. Tho’ I’m not sure about Pasternak’s atheism. But he definitely was a Jew who was not a Judaism follower, and not a “Jew for Jesus” type either.

    Comment by MT — November 20, 2012 @ 2:13 pm

  11. “the Jews who lived here had to write “Jew” as their ethnicity in their passports, no matter whether they believed in Judaism, or not. ”

    Yes, this was common practice and dated from Tsarist days; in Service’s biography of Trotsky there is a picture of a form which Trotsky filled in not long after the Revolution, in which he lists his ethnicity as “Jew”.

    Comment by Harsanyi_Janos — November 21, 2012 @ 2:46 am

  12. Is Jew a Race? i need to go look up anti-Semitic ~ i need a refresher course in Who’s a Jew? i’m ok with a Hebrew speaking Atheist / IE non-Believer The Real Infidel ~ Godless heathen Ok but i’m not buying An Atheist who speaks in Tongues NO WAY.
    As you put it MT it almost sounds like Jew is a Floor Wax and a Dessert Topping, We Atheists would buy nothing that supports a Higher Power you know the invisible flying spaghetti monster. Any anything Zionist can’t have an Atheist in the mix because of the inherent ‘chosen people’ status ~ which gawd chose you etc it’s outsid the parameters of the definition of Atheist.
    i don’t see a problem with having to write ‘Jew’ if its a Race or is it a relay my head needs some 411.

    in a separate question Does anyone on here know if the Star of David is Painted/decal whatever on the sides of their/our Military Tanks Jets anything?

    Comment by Darwin26 — November 21, 2012 @ 7:23 am

  13. no such thing as “race” in a biological sense. semetic is a linguistic category that includes arabic afaik.

    Comment by meltr — November 21, 2012 @ 5:24 pm

  14. thank you meltr,
    i picked up this book called Racism 101 ~ because the f’ield’ is somewhat complex and even tho i’m anti-racist what does that entail? I went to a NIOT (Not in Our Town) meeting last Sat before hitting the Sweetheart Bakery twinkie Strike to clarify if it was ok to ask an Indian what tribe they are from.. Indians are all about the Tribe and happy to tell you but for a while asking an Indian what tribe they belonged to was taboo ~ it is not taboo. But what is taboo is asking a Black person what tribe they’re from.
    There are subtle nuances that can get you into trouble with Race. In a yahoo loop yesterday a person brings up the word Quotas RE Immigrants and immediately someone is calling that person a racist. Such a discussion killer and the term has become a hair trigger for the Jew who does not want to deal with reality of racism in Israel.
    More investigation more will be revealed.

    Comment by Darwin26 — November 21, 2012 @ 6:45 pm

  15. The role of religion in a Zionist movement that was, for many decades, dominated by atheists has been summarized as “God doesn’t exist and he gave us this land.”

    BTW, it may be apocryphal but I’ve heard or read that early Zionist settler youth would celebrate Yom Kippur (the day when religious Jews fast) by eating ham sandwiches at the Wailing Wall.

    Comment by Red Snapper — November 22, 2012 @ 4:05 am

  16. Great reply Red, succinct, brilliant. such omnipotent impudent Zions, of course if you’re the Chosen People i guess you can make a square circle but i still can’t buy the Atheist part of the equation you offer. But thinking about your equation perhaps a Zionist could be an Atheist but to me being around all those ‘believers’ the hypocrisy and contempt ~ Oy Vee ~ a Rabbi couldn’t be an Atheist, he’d be forced to be around the Heathen (like me a godless being) the Infidel the Unclean whatever .

    and thinking about Ham Sandwich (funny) did they have ham back in bibical times? or was the ref to Pork and the hamming process came along much later?

    A Juicy Red apple is nice but not every Apple is Red. If there were a gawd he she it would be an, Atheist.

    Comment by Darwin26 — November 22, 2012 @ 6:41 am

  17. “Any anything Zionist can’t have an Atheist in the mix because of the inherent ‘chosen people’ status ~ which gawd chose you etc it’s outsid the parameters of the definition of Atheist.”

    Why? English, American, Russian etc. nationalists can very well proclaim the special status of their people while being atheist. Israeli Jews can do so too.

    Well yes, a Rabbi can’t be an Atheist. You don’t need to be a Rabbi to be a Zionist.

    And you need to be a little less touchy around the whole “religion” part. Most Palestinians are religious, too.

    Comment by MT — November 25, 2012 @ 1:17 pm

  18. [...] Update 18.33 uur: Laat niemand denken dat Israëls wandaden een  kwestie zijn van Joden tegen Arabieren. Er zijn debnkrichtingen in het Jodendom die frontaal stelling nemen tegen de staat Israël. Aanhangers van die denkrichtingen gaan de straat op, zoals op 15 december in Londen. Weblog The Unrepentant Marxist heeft er een foto van geplaatst. [...]

    Pingback by Gaza: soort van liveblog | Ravotr — January 7, 2013 @ 12:06 pm


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